ინტერვიუ საიდ ხაჩუკაევთან / 2009

interviu CeCneTis diasporis xelmZRvanelTan, baton said xaCukaevTan hamburgSi

03.07.09

bolo xanebSi evropaSi gaxSirda sxvadasxva organizaciebis mier mowyobili Sexvedrebi sxvadasxva formatSi kavkasiis Temaze. Cven SevxvdiT hamburgis CeCnuri diasporis xelmZRvanels baton said xaCuevs da vTxoveT moeyola CvenTvis, Tu ratom gaaqtiurdnen evropaSi mcxovrebi Crdilo kavkasielebi da vTxoveT komentari gaekeTebina aqtualur movlenebTan dakavSirebiT.

-said, ramdeni xarT Tanamemamuleni, aq hamburgSi?

s.x.- daaxloebiT 600 CeCeni aris Cvens hamburgis diasporaSi gaerTianebuli, arian inguSebic.

- rogor Seafaseb Crdilo kavkasiis dRevandel mdgomareobas?

s.x.- ceCnebs aseTi igavi gvaqvs: mama da Svili garbian, kaci mokles, Svili ekiTxeba mamas, - mama, movigeT es omi Cven? Mama pasuxobs, - ki, Svili kvlav ekiTxeba, - maS ratomRa gavrbivarT?

dRes kavkasiaSi aseTi mdgomareobaa: ruseTma 200 wlis manZilze ver moaxerxa „danaTesaveboda“ kavkasias, ver SeZlo, rom es mxare megobruli gamxdariyo, ver SeZlo verc Tavis sasargeblod, verc kavkasiisaTvis. Tumca, amisaTvis udidesi saSualebebi hqondaT. Ar aris aranairi eWvi, rom isini gadian kavkasiidan. Ar aris aranairi eWvi, rom maTi mTeli es politikuri moqmedebebi, ruseTis bolo krunCxvebia. procesi midis, rogorc amas gorbaCovi ityoda da es procesi Seuqcevadia. is momenti, roca SeiZleboda Semobrunebis wertili yofoloyo, ukve gavida.

-kadirovi iqaa da ra gaZlevs asTi mtkice msjelobis safuZvels?

s.x.- saqme imaSia, rom dRes ruseTis garemo Secvlilia. qveynebi, xalxebi win wavidnen, ara marto teqnikuri TvalsazrisiT. demokratiis ganviTarebam am qveynebSi moitana is, rom isini arasodes aRar daTanxmdebian sxvanair cxovrebis wess. tendenciam, rom datovo ruseTi da miuaxlovde evropas, dasavleTs, miiRo udidesi gamzomilebebi. araa eWvi, rom mizezi am yvelafrisa aris ruseTSi gamefebuli ukanonoba, samarTali, romelic ar funqcionirebs.

amdeni navTobis rezervebi, oqro Tu sxva wiaRiseuli, mTeli es fantastikuri simdidre isev da isev im borot xumrobad gadaiqca: “не в коня корм”. (ne v konia korm) xalxs CamorTmeuli aqvs Tavisi qveynis marTvis ufleba. faqtiurad, ruseTma bolo ori aTwleulis manZilze moaxerxa Tavisi saxelmwifoebrivobis eWvis qveS dayeneba. ruseTi aRmoCda erTi didi yamiri, garSemortymuli mis simdidreebze moSurne sxva saxelmwifoebiT. es rRveva mxolod drois sakiTxia.

-Sen ambob, rom ruseTi demokratiis aSenebis survilis mqone qvynebiT aris garSemortymuli. gulisxmob amaSi kadirovis CeCneTsac, am wuTas Tundac ideis doneze?

s.x.- CeCneTi ruseTi ukve aRar aris. amas aRiarebs yvela, vinc politikas realurad afasebs. rusuli kanoni iq ar moqmedebs. xalxi exla Tavis gadarCenaze fiqrobs, Cven gadavitaneT umZimesi omebi, davkargeT mosaxleobis erTi mesamedi. kadirovi exla aravis ar enaRvleba.

-es gasagebia. Sen Tqvi, rom kavkasia „gadis“. saiT? Ra koncefciiT?

s.x.- Cven yvelani, Cemi megobrebi aq bevrs vsmjelobT. vxedavT momavals gaerTianebul konfederaciul kavkasiaSi.

Cven yvelani didi javriT vuyurebT saqarTvelos. saqarTvelo saukuneTa manZilze erTaderTi qveyana iyo kavkasiaSi, sadac rogorc erT mdinareSi grovdebian nakadulebi, ikrebda kavkasiis eTnosebs Tavis TavSi, am ideis saukeTeso gagebiT, radgan kavkasias axasiaTebda kacTmoyvareoba, tolerantuloba. es cnebebi vrceldeboda mis garSemo. ai, es suli gaqra! saqarTveloSi yovelTvis iyo adgili sxvadasxva kulturebisaTvis. aq yvela kargad grZnobda Tavs. bolo imperiis qveS gaterebuli wlebis manZilze, ruseTma SeZlo saqarTvelos nivelireba, gaTelva, misi mWidro wnexis qveS moqceva. gaaqro is, saidanac saqarTvelos es suli modioda. ruseTma is moaqcia sxva dinebaSi. Cemi da Cemi megobrebis dabejiTebuli azria, rom saqarTvelos verc amerika da verc evrogaerTianeba ver uSvelis. saqarTvelo unda dabrundes im kalapotSi, raSic is istoriulad kavkasiaSi imyofeboda. SesaZlebelia, rom es sisxlic daujdes, magram ra unda qna? aviRoT ubralo magaliTi: dRes Tu saqarTvelos parlamenti CeCneTis 1992 wlis 12 martis gasvliT sesiaze aRiarebis ratificirebas moaxdenda, amiT saqarTvelo xmamaRla moiTxovda ufro mets, vidre afxazeTis da e.w. samxreT oseTis problemebis mogvarebaa. ganacxadon, rom maT undaT CeCnebTan erTad, ras izavda maSin ruseTi? ras izavda mTeli msoflio? – verafers. piriqiT, ruseTi ityoda, rom saqarTvelo vaxabitebs da islamur teroristebs uWers mxars, iyvirebda, magram verafers ver gaakeTebda. saqarTvelos hgonia, rom „did politikas“ TamaSobs, CarTulia did politikaSi. es ki, sinamdvileSi araferi araa. Tu saqarTvelos didi masStabis politikis warmoeba unda, SeuZlia Tqvas, ai, amaT vcnob, xval darestans vcnob.

-ki, magram saqarTvelo rTul mdgomareobaSia, ara marto omis gamo, aramed mentalurad, CeCneTSi ki kadirovia, ra resursi arsebobs aseTi qmedebebisaTvis?

s.x.- darwmunebuli var, rom arsebobs! krizisi pirvel rigSi aris ideaSi da mxolod amis Semdeg sxva sakiTxebSi. saqarTvelo, rogorc saxelmwifo Semdgaria. igi iyo saxelmwifo ruseTamde, ruseTis drosac da iqneba ruseTis daSlis Semdegac. aravin ar dauSvebs, rom evropis centrSi qristianuli saxelmwifo gauqmdes. pirvel rigSi daimaxsovre Cemi sityvebi, TviT rusi xalxi ar dauSvebs amas.

-ar aris es gadametebuli Sefaseba, aqamde ra iyo maS Cvens istoriaSi?

s.x.- es imitom, rom saqarTvelo araswor nabijebs dgavs. ai, aviRoT burjanaZe... da msgavsi... aseve, nu iviwyebT musulmani qarTvelebis did raodenobas, romlebic saqarTveloze fiqroben. saqarTvelos aqvs resursi, magram am resursiT sargeblobis uflebas uTmobs ruseTs da ar iyenebs saTavisod. ruseTi ki iyenebs yvela resurss, roca unda, rogorc unda, darestani, Cerqezebi da sxv. uxeSad, rom vTqvaT, xmarobs yvela pedals, saqarTvelo ki dums.

-Cven vadevnebT bolo xanebSi Tvalyurs, rom evropaSi gaxSirda Sexvedrebi, tardeba konferenciebi, aqtiurad monawileoben Turqi mecnierebi sxvadasxva akademiur gamosvlebSi, arian CerqezTa organizaciebi, romlebic pan Turqul interesebs icaven, Tqven am dajgufebebTan ar moiazrebiT. gaqvT kontaqtebi erTmaneTSi? mTel am dajgufebebSi rTulia garkveva. asevea, TviT kavkasiaSic. sad unda moiZebnis „janmrTeli marcvali“?

s.x.- saqme imaSia, rom mTel msoflioSi gabneuli Cerqezuli diaspora, dres mxolod dekoratiul xasiaTs inarCunebs. isini asimilirebulni arian. dRes Tu maT raime Zalazea laparaki, es Zala aris 100% -iT sxvisi, ruseTis, TurqeTis Tu sxva interesebiT marTuli. is iyo Zlieri gzavnili 100, Tundac 70-60 wlis winad. es iyo repatriaciaze meocnebe Zveli Taoba, romelic aRar aris. dRes ikrebs Zalas da iqmneba Zlieri politikuri gaerTianeba Crdilo kavkasieli xalxis diasporisagan evropaSi. esaa daaxloebiT 200 aTasi CeCeni, 10 aTasobiT daRestneli da exla maT ematebian inguSebi. mdgomareoba dRes isea, rom am Zalebs ar SeuZliaT iyvnen asimilirebulni, rom maT dasTmon istoriuli arena, radgan „rkinis farda“ daimsxvra, ruseTi aRaraa sabWoTa kavSiri. es is Zalebia, romelsac evropelebi daeyrdnobian kavkasiis integrirebisaTvis im momentisaTvis misaReb, erTerT civilizirebul erTobaSi. aq, evropaSi ukve intensiurad dgeba kontaqtebi sxvadasxva mimarTulebiT, idgmeba garkveuli nabijebi ruseTis mxaresac, rom es Zala Cadges saWiro kalapotSi. isev da isev saqarTvelo araa CarTuli am moZraobaSi. es didi Secdomaa.

magaliTi minda moviyvano,-erTi kviriT adre, sanam ruseTi saqarTvelos Tavs daesxmeboda, me pirdapiri gagebiT guliT vgrZnobdi ubedurebas. mivwere Cveni diasporis, daaxl. 300 adamianis saxeliT, romlebTanac me winaswar saubrebi mqonda,- werili saqarTvelos elCs germaniaSi. Cven vwerdiT, rom ganvicdiT da guli gvtkiva saqarTveloze da Tu omi daiwyeba, Cven ar davdgebodiT gverdze. aranairi pasuxi ar mimiRia.

-Tumca raime diplomatiuri pasuxis gacema, yovelTvis SesaZlebelia, geTanxmebi. rogor fiqrob, rogor unda caerTos saqarTvelo am moZraobaSi, rasac aq, evropaSi myofi Crdilo kavkasiuri gaerTianebebi awyoben?

-s.x. aravisaTvis ar aris saidumlo, rom ssrk-Si, 240 milionian mosaxleobaSi, qarTul kinematografias, qarTul literaturas eWira sruliad gansakuTrebuli adgili. me verasodes daviviwyeb im dReebs, roca televiziis ekranebiT „daTa TuTaSxia“ gadioda. mTel sabWoTa kavSirSi mag dros quCebSi aravin dadioda, yvela televizors uyurebda.

-ese igi kargi yofila...! Stirlecsac uyurebda.

-s.x.- xo, Tu ginda Seadare, orive filmze ase iyo. mTeli qveyana kiTxulobda nodar dumbaZes. sad arian es niWieri xalxi? aseTi xalxis nawarmoebebs xom SeeZlo kavkasiis gaerTianeba gaerTianebuli saqarTvelos garSemo.

-Sen xatav iseT idealur suraTs, - Zlieri saqarTvelo centrSi da garSemo Tavisufali qveynebi erT gaerTianebaSi.

-s.x.- ratomac ara? Ees aris idea. amis garSemo unda moxdes gaerTianeba.

-unda vemsaxuroT am ideas...

-s.x.- absoluturad! dRes mTeli saqarTvelo politizurebulia. Tavis Tavi yvelas gorgasali hgonia. saakaSvilma, misi yvela „kuTxeebis“ da minusebis miuxedavad, Seqmna axali saqarTvelo, iseTi, romlis gageba civilizirebul samyaros SeuZlia. ai, es aris yvelaze didi dartyma, romelic man ruseTs miayena, anu, ruseTis damyayebul reJims.

gardaicvala goderZi Coxeli, Cemi megobari... dagvrCa ganuxorcielebeli proeqtebi. es aris scenari CeCneTze da saqarTveloze. aseTi da sxva proeqtebi unda iyos am ideis mkvebavi, bevri erToblivi Zalisxmevaa saWiro.

-am sityvebze bevri oponenti gamogiCdeba saqarTveloSi. rogor xedav Sen saqarTveloSi ganviTarebul Sida politikur mdgomareobas?

s.x. –saakaSvili RmerTi araa da arc winaswarmetyveli, magram isini, visac misi Camogdeba undaT, aiRon yvelaferi is, rac saakaSvilma gaakeTa da Tqvan, rom mis adgilze isini ufro mets gaakeTebdnen?

qveyana, romelic man SevardnaZisagan Caibara, arafriT ar gansxvavdeboda ruseTis guberniebisagan. saakaSvilis dRevandelma oponentebma, romlebic sargebloben im TavisuflebiT, rac isev saakaSvilis drom moitana, nu aryeven navs! am navSi Cven yvelani erTad vsxedvarT.

-said, didi madloba saubrisaTvis!

saubari Caiwera marika lafaurma

sazogadoeba „liles“ Tabjdomare, hamburgi